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Post by 6ix God on Feb 2, 2017 12:56:00 GMT -5
So. Yes, I baited J in that thread. I'm not going to act coy or give a toothless grin; I'll stand by what I did. Was it wrong? Absolutely. Am I sorry? Absolutely not.
Let me start with this: I was not mocking J's nephew with cancer. Let me repeat: I WAS NOT MOCKING HIS NEPHEW WITH CANCER. My grandfather died of cancer. My best friend in elementary school's father died on lymphoid cancer he contracted from Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam. J, my heart and prayers go out to your family as your nephew goes through this ordeal.
That being said, what I WAS baiting was the absolute double standard that the members of Zero Tolerance have imposed on the IC boards and what people can and cannot say. Several months ago, Dion Necurat asked that people stop calling his character homeless on the IC boards, hinting that it may touch a sensitive spot due to real problems he had. The reaction to this was "I'm playing my character", then to absolutely double down on Dion on the IC board. To my knowledge, Dion has never received an apology for this and was told to "not let it bother him". I am not speaking for Dion, and he is free to contradict me.
From this point, you have told us that both pedophile and cancer jokes are unacceptable despite the fact that you have made both jokes in character. Do not make excuses: admit you are being hypocritical. The moment you admit it and apologize, any of us are willing to accommodate you, but respect is a two way street. You will be treated the way you treat others, and it's time you step back and seriously examine how you treat other members of this federation.
Which leads me to the issues with Kaz/Wade. This was an issue you started when you accused him of sandbagging at ONE. You made this accusation without asking him – you simply decided that a public accusation was sufficient to address a concern. At this time, we had several PM threads between the three of us in #BK and the three of you in ZT. At this time, the three of us in #BK had actively reached out to you several times about collaboration and cooperation. I can gladly provide screen caps of my inbox if you'd like to contest this.
I am posting this as a public thread rather than taking this to PMs because thus far, the method of conflict mediation and alleviation on our end HAS been going through PMs and moderators to work things out. We have had no success with diplomacy – in fact, our frustration is that the people we have struggled to get along with have chosen to publically air their grievances at every chance which has created a public perception of us as these bullies or trouble makers. I have never ignored or excluded anyone from this federation – I talk politics with Dag all the time on Facebook. I am not willing to stay quiet or operate with respect to privacy when that same courtesy is not extended to me. Again, respect is a two way street, and you will be treated how you treat others.
And this leads me to my final point which I feel needs to be finally made. I understand I could get banned, but I think the record needs to be set straight:
For as much flak as CD, Odin, and – bafflingly – Purse have gotten about being "biased": Matt, you have not been a fair or professional admin. Throughout every conflict, I have been in contact or been contact by Bryan, Curt, Andrew, and Seth to at least get my take on the issue. You are the only one who has never asked any of us for our side of any issue or even just a friendly chat. When you defend one side of an issue while never bothering to get the whole story, that's not providing balance – that's contrarianism. The only time you have contact me or anyone in #BeachKrew was to ask I feel you could beat us up in a segment and put you over.
It'S also time you admit that you have culpability in the tension going on right now. Since returning, I have had a number of people who've come to me and told me that they were informed "we were troublemakers coming back to destroy WCF." These people have all named two names: you and Twilight. Twilight has admitted such to me and apologized; when are you?
I am not unreasonable or elitist or cliquish or exclusionary. I have never ignored a message sent to my inbox from anyone. I have one person blocked – Rod, after he started openly insulting me in a PM thread. Before that, we had about four PM chains which were on average seven pages long. If anyone has ever had or does have a problem with me, I'm a message away. I will not, however, remain silent or passive on this anymore. I am tired of being defamed while trying to take the high road.
There, it's out. Respond however you like.
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Post by Salem Shepard on Feb 2, 2017 13:36:30 GMT -5
So. Yes, I baited J in that thread. I'm not going to act coy or give a toothless grin; I'll stand by what I did. Was it wrong? Absolutely. Am I sorry? Absolutely not. **...which goes agaisnt the PM that Seth sent us all; while weve stayed within the boundaries that Seth set.**
Let me start with this: I was not mocking J's nephew with cancer. Let me repeat: I WAS NOT MOCKING HIS NEPHEW WITH CANCER. My grandfather died of cancer. My best friend in elementary school's father died on lymphoid cancer he contracted from Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam. J, my heart and prayers go out to your family as your nephew goes through this ordeal.
That being said, what I WAS baiting was the absolute double standard that the members of Zero Tolerance have imposed on the IC boards and what people can and cannot say. Several months ago, Dion Necurat asked that people stop calling his character homeless on the IC boards, hinting that it may touch a sensitive spot due to real problems he had. The reaction to this was "I'm playing my character", then to absolutely double down on Dion on the IC board. To my knowledge, Dion has never received an apology for this and was told to "not let it bother him". I am not speaking for Dion, and he is free to contradict me. **No, actually, after Dion started the OOC thread and I replied, we had some words and all that ended. Thread locked. Homeless jokes gone. CD PMed us about it. problem solved. Yet, at the same time we had the issue with the Juggalo thing, and people still called J a juggalo.....soooooo, when we talk about double standards.....
From this point, you have told us that both pedophile and cancer jokes are unacceptable despite the fact that you have made both jokes in character. Do not make excuses: admit you are being hypocritical. The moment you admit it and apologize, any of us are willing to accommodate you, but respect is a two way street. You will be treated the way you treat others, and it's time you step back and seriously examine how you treat other members of this federation. **Way to lump everything together. I (ME) made the chemo comments to AY. 100% IC, no bait. Your comment was bait. Thats the difference. AY admited he baited Cash on the IT board. Thats the difference. Your comment was 100% bait. Again, you going against the rules Seth set for us. ....and people tried to say in the other thread "He wasnt talking to J," like anyone actually believed that shit...**
Which leads me to the issues with Kaz/Wade. This was an issue you started when you accused him of sandbagging at ONE. You made this accusation without asking him – you simply decided that a public accusation was sufficient to address a concern. At this time, we had several PM threads between the three of us in #BK and the three of you in ZT. At this time, the three of us in #BK had actively reached out to you several times about collaboration and cooperation. I can gladly provide screen caps of my inbox if you'd like to contest this. ***Youve stated this many times before. We dont want to work directly with you, if that wasnt clear already. Ive talked to several of you, and Ive been quiet and minded my own business trying to keep the peace. You know this. Ive talked to you, Ive talked to Rabid. Ive sent PMs to guys like Andre complimenting their work with no veiled shots or bad intentions in those compliments.***
I am posting this as a public thread rather than taking this to PMs because thus far, the method of conflict mediation and alleviation on our end HAS been going through PMs and moderators to work things out. We have had no success with diplomacy – in fact, our frustration is that the people we have struggled to get along with have chosen to publically air their grievances at every chance which has created a public perception of us as these bullies or trouble makers. **Actually, when yall came back, you already had that stigma. It was warned to us by people that you didnt even mention. non-trouble makers***
The rest of your post didnt apply to me so I deleted it. lol With that, Im done, and Im glad we could air some of this out. ...I guess?
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 13:36:40 GMT -5
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Post by Teo Blaze on Feb 2, 2017 13:38:08 GMT -5
Okay. I feel like there is some kind of thing here that we're going to have to address, and I hope that this is not an improper place to do it.
We...as a federation...are taking things too seriously.
I get it. I mean that, I understand. I have had people say things to me that just broke my heart. I'm not telling you what they were, but suffice it to say that the in-character boards can just crush you sometimes.
I'm not going to tell you what they are though, because I know you don't mean it. Look, guys. It's one thing to find a joke offensive, or unfunny, but it's another thing entirely to try and pull out this "holier than thou" card or rush the stage and hold a protest during the comedian's stand-up act.
I swear sometimes it comes across as you guys looking for an excuse to get angry. I'm looking at everyone here, by the way, not just the notable pot stirrers.
Are we really talking about sandbagging? Really??
It is an imaginary wrestling belt.
I repeat. It does not exist. NONE OF THIS EXISTS. Furthermore, not a single person in the entire federation is going to remember you based on the match outcome. I had a record breaking title reign, I was a champion for all of 2016, and I guarantee you that's not what people remember about me.
They're going to remember you for how you act. If you are causing fights, if you are causing drama, it does not. I repeat. DOES NOT matter how many title belts you win.
We all want the same thing out of this. We want to have fun and we want people to react to our creations.
Jared, you can back ME up on this. When we had our feud of the year, it almost drove me crazy writing all those matches, and even when the result was predetermined, I still wrote because it was just too much damn fun not to write.
Furthermore, we agreed on a 5k word limit, even less if we needed to. We were determined to make it fun for the readers.
So how about a little cooperation guys, huh? What happened to that?
When did this become US vs. Them?
News flash: There is no Them. There are no enemies. Even if you just absolutely hate someone or think that they're a terrible human being, we are in this together. We want to make WCF into the greatest federation in the world.
Which brings me to my final point. If someone says something that offends you, if someone says something you find just unfunny.
Do 2 things. First, don't respond to it. There is no...I Repeat, NO reason to turn every comment made in bad taste into a moral discussion on censorship.
2 shoot them a Private message. Put a moderator in the receivers if you need, and politely ask them not to make those jokes to you.
We need to stop escalating. It is always an option to just stop responding. In fact, it's the best option.
Now can we get back to telling stories already? I'm tired of this being an atmosphere of distrust and cliques. It's hurting the product and the output when noone wants to work with each other.
People (I'm not saying who) have actually tried to console me over losing the internet belt. And while I greatly appreciate that, it doesn't bug me. Katherine Phoenix poured a ton of effort into that thread, and was the better competitor. If the time comes, maybe I'll get another crack, but in the meantime, why can't we be happy for each other anymore? Why can't we respect each other?
Guys. This really shouldn't be so hard. EVERYONE take their ego down about a notch and a half and stop escalating. It never. EVER.
Solves anything.
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 13:55:57 GMT -5
Also, I feel I should add, the only reason I started "insulting" you through PM was because you messaged me and told me that you viewed my friends as under carders with some kind of horrible superiority complex going on. Which by the way I approached Purse about. Just putting this out there since you want everything to be out in the open
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Post by 6ix God on Feb 2, 2017 13:56:17 GMT -5
So, I can address this. Yes, i've lumped you all together. I did it intentionally in the same way both you and I were lumped into the PM thread you spoke of while being uninvolved. Ironically, I've never had a problem with you – I've generally appreciated how fair and detached youve been from the problems between Wade and J/Cash. I'm sure you're stepping up here for the same reason I am – to defend your friends – and I don't blame you. I'm going to, however, stand by my point: someone in your group said a joke was off limits but someone in your camp made that same joke. There is an open inconsistency and hypocrisy in how you expect the fed to behave versus how you expect your friends to behave. You need to acknowledge that. As for the juggalo jokes, I don't make them. You asked people not to make them, and most of us stopped. If any Pantheon guys are still making them, well they're just being tools. I'll call them out as well. But you're not being truthful on Dion – the comments absolutely continued. I know because I reached out to Dion so he wouldn't quit the federation in anger. He was bullied, and much of that came from your stable. Again, you need to acknowledge this: the facts are not on your side. There are others who did it as well, but I'm not addressing them. And as for not wanting to work with us, that's both a half truth and not the point. I can post conversation logs where you guys are enthusiastic before going to radio silence. But again, not the point; the point is we were all in active communication, you had reasonable demonstrations we were friendly and open, but rather than address us upfront with issues, J and Cash took to the public boards to accuse Kaz of sandbagging. There was no attempt at mediation or peaceful resolution – dirty laundry was aired and accusations are fair. A deliberate act was made to attack Kaz in public for no reason other than suspicion: there I said a gross disparity in how this conflict was started and escalated. That needs to be acknowledged.
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Post by Jeff Purse on Feb 2, 2017 13:58:25 GMT -5
Also, I feel I should add, the only reason I started "insulting" you through PM was because you messaged me and told me that you viewed my friends as under carders with some kind of horrible superiority complex going on. Which by the way I approached Purse about. Just putting this out there since you want everything to be out in the open Rod I explained to you that he meant the character and not the handler. Several times.
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Post by Salem Shepard on Feb 2, 2017 14:03:35 GMT -5
So, I can address this. But you're not being truthful on Dion – the comments absolutely continued. I know because I reached out to Dion so he wouldn't quit the federation in anger. He was bullied, and much of that came from your stable. Again, you need to acknowledge this: the facts are not on your side. There are others who did it as well, but I'm not addressing them. No, it did not continue. You are 100% wrong on that. That was the day I changed my name to "Im AM hot shit" cause CD pissed me off - and CD sent us a PM after that. We stopped dogging Dion after that. I did have an exchange of PMs with Dion that same day (CD was aware) and Ive never spoken to - or mentioned him - since then. Neither did J. Dion was basically off limits after that. What you're saying above and what Im telling you all happened in a 24hr window. Nobody on my end took shots at Dion being homeless after the CD PM. If so, then I missed it, but I honestly dont think that I did.... **Edit: We went silent because we decided we didnt want to diretly work with yall because tensions had started to rise at that point. So yeah, we left it alone.
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Post by 6ix God on Feb 2, 2017 14:05:35 GMT -5
Also, I feel I should add, the only reason I started "insulting" you through PM was because you messaged me and told me that you viewed my friends as under carders with some kind of horrible superiority complex going on. Which by the way I approached Purse about. Just putting this out there since you want everything to be out in the open This is a distortion. I can provide the chat log. What I said was that I was too busy IC to work with new guys, especially if I wasn't sure rather they'd stay or not. If I remember correctly, I probably said it in a blasé manner at first but attempted to clarify several times: you were simply more interested in insulting me at this point. I have no problem working with any noobie on an OOC basis. I'm a huge writing geek, a WCF mark, and I probably have a billion ideas I could pitch about your character. That said, I have a lot of IC offers at any given time and I will usually work with a friend or someone with a belt – this is competitive, man, and I'm playing to win. I have also never been the one being put over in a single angle I've been in, save my first story with Major Redemption; I've "gotten over" purely through results, and I'm not keen on just "putting someone over" for the sake of putting someone over when I've worked very hard to get to where I am. I usually tend to prefer RP collaboration over storyline, which allows world building. If some people chose to call me "elitist" for that, fair enough, but it's simple pragmatism in my mind. I try to balance it by being as open and available as possibles OOC.
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 14:12:23 GMT -5
We...as a federation...are taking things too seriously. I get it. I mean that, I understand. I have had people say things to me that just broke my heart. I'm not telling you what they were, but suffice it to say that the in-character boards can just crush you sometimes. I'm not going to tell you what they are though, because I know you don't mean it I sure hope this isn't referring to our internet match up? If I said anything which upset you or bothered you in any way I hope you know it was all IC and OOC I think very highly of you. Both as a writer and as a man you're definitely the kind of guy I'd want to go out for cookies with lol
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 14:13:39 GMT -5
Also, I feel I should add, the only reason I started "insulting" you through PM was because you messaged me and told me that you viewed my friends as under carders with some kind of horrible superiority complex going on. Which by the way I approached Purse about. Just putting this out there since you want everything to be out in the open This is a distortion. I can provide the chat log. What I said was that I was too busy IC to work with new guys, especially if I wasn't sure rather they'd stay or not. If I remember correctly, I probably said it in a blasé manner at first but attempted to clarify several times: you were simply more interested in insulting me at this point. I have no problem working with any noobie on an OOC basis. I'm a huge writing geek, a WCF mark, and I probably have a billion ideas I could pitch about your character. That said, I have a lot of IC offers at any given time and I will usually work with a friend or someone with a belt – this is competitive, man, and I'm playing to win. I have also never been the one being put over in a single angle I've been in, save my first story with Major Redemption; I've "gotten over" purely through results, and I'm not keen on just "putting someone over" for the sake of putting someone over when I've worked very hard to get to where I am. I usually tend to prefer RP collaboration over storyline, which allows world building. If some people chose to call me "elitist" for that, fair enough, but it's simple pragmatism in my mind. I try to balance it by being as open and available as possibles OOC. I can't exactly remember what made me flip out on you so much, but I do remember what I said bothering me a lot and going to mods about it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have flipped out on you for no reason... I'm crazy but I'm not THAT crazy
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Post by 6ix God on Feb 2, 2017 14:20:07 GMT -5
This is a distortion. I can provide the chat log. What I said was that I was too busy IC to work with new guys, especially if I wasn't sure rather they'd stay or not. If I remember correctly, I probably said it in a blasé manner at first but attempted to clarify several times: you were simply more interested in insulting me at this point. I have no problem working with any noobie on an OOC basis. I'm a huge writing geek, a WCF mark, and I probably have a billion ideas I could pitch about your character. That said, I have a lot of IC offers at any given time and I will usually work with a friend or someone with a belt – this is competitive, man, and I'm playing to win. I have also never been the one being put over in a single angle I've been in, save my first story with Major Redemption; I've "gotten over" purely through results, and I'm not keen on just "putting someone over" for the sake of putting someone over when I've worked very hard to get to where I am. I usually tend to prefer RP collaboration over storyline, which allows world building. If some people chose to call me "elitist" for that, fair enough, but it's simple pragmatism in my mind. I try to balance it by being as open and available as possibles OOC. I can't exactly remember what made me flip out on you so much, but I do remember what I said bothering me a lot and going to mods about it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have flipped out on you for no reason... I'm crazy but I'm not THAT crazy I'll put it this way: There is someone I've worked with extensively in the past who is running a new character anonymously (not saying what character or who). If he asked me to do a storyline with him, despite having worked with him a billion times in the past, I would tell him he has to wait in line. I've worked very hard to get where I am, and I'm weary of using my spot to just "pull someone up" when I never had much of the same. #BK vs. Pantheon? Literally caused by us forcing Crow and Richards to acknowledge us. The Pride? Again, they forced it on us. Flash has said this many times, and I endorse it: if you want a top guy to acknowledge you, shove it in their face. Grab 'me by the balls IC, then back it up.
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 14:20:42 GMT -5
Also, I feel I should add, the only reason I started "insulting" you through PM was because you messaged me and told me that you viewed my friends as under carders with some kind of horrible superiority complex going on. Which by the way I approached Purse about. Just putting this out there since you want everything to be out in the open Rod I explained to you that he meant the character and not the handler. Several times. Right, but by the time I had reacted negatively to it... it was too late. Maybe you're right, maybe it was just a big misunderstanding. Remember when I made that ooc not so long ago and apologised for lashing out at people? He was one of the ones I was thinking of.
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Post by Dionysus on Feb 2, 2017 14:22:09 GMT -5
So, I can address this. But you're not being truthful on Dion – the comments absolutely continued. I know because I reached out to Dion so he wouldn't quit the federation in anger. He was bullied, and much of that came from your stable. Again, you need to acknowledge this: the facts are not on your side. There are others who did it as well, but I'm not addressing them. No, it did not continue. You are 100% wrong on that. That was the day I changed my name to "Im AM hot shit" cause CD pissed me off - and CD sent us a PM after that. We stopped dogging Dion after that. I did have an exchange of PMs with Dion that same day (CD was aware) and Ive never spoken to - or mentioned him - since then. Neither did J. Dion was basically off limits after that. What you're saying above and what Im telling you all happened in a 24hr window. Nobody on my end took shots at Dion being homeless after the CD PM. If so, then I missed it, but I honestly dont think that I did.... **Edit: We went silent because we decided we didnt want to diretly work with yall because tensions had started to rise at that point. So yeah, we left it alone. To clarify, this was brought up a few times. The last time it happened, it took me to basically saying I'm done to get anyone to stop. It's because it was blending IC and OOC, and it wasn't specific to just ZT. Everyone had this mindset of the character, hence my adamant position on the matter. If you'd like to refute that claim, you're certainly within your right, but bear in mind you'd be refuting statements from the guy directly involved. I haven't read anything up until this point, so give me a minute to look back.
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Post by Miss L ilithenix on Feb 2, 2017 14:24:39 GMT -5
I can't exactly remember what made me flip out on you so much, but I do remember what I said bothering me a lot and going to mods about it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have flipped out on you for no reason... I'm crazy but I'm not THAT crazy I'll put it this way: There is someone I've worked with extensively in the past who is running a new character anonymously (not saying what character or who). If he asked me to do a storyline with him, despite having worked with him a billion times in the past, I would tell him he has to wait in line. I've worked very hard to get where I am, and I'm weary of using my spot to just "pull someone up" when I never had much of the same. #BK vs. Pantheon? Literally caused by us forcing Crow and Richards to acknowledge us. The Pride? Again, they forced it on us. Flash has said this many times, and I endorse it: if you want a top guy to acknowledge you, shove it in their face. Grab 'me by the balls IC, then back it up. You're right, I shouldn't have flipped out on you like I did. As purse said, I misunderstood you and got angry (it hasn't been good times for me lately personally), I'm sorry for how I spoke to you, I really mean that
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Post by Salem Shepard on Feb 2, 2017 14:40:01 GMT -5
No, it did not continue. You are 100% wrong on that. That was the day I changed my name to "Im AM hot shit" cause CD pissed me off - and CD sent us a PM after that. We stopped dogging Dion after that. I did have an exchange of PMs with Dion that same day (CD was aware) and Ive never spoken to - or mentioned him - since then. Neither did J. Dion was basically off limits after that. What you're saying above and what Im telling you all happened in a 24hr window. Nobody on my end took shots at Dion being homeless after the CD PM. If so, then I missed it, but I honestly dont think that I did.... **Edit: We went silent because we decided we didnt want to diretly work with yall because tensions had started to rise at that point. So yeah, we left it alone. To clarify, this was brought up a few times. The last time it happened, it took me to basically saying I'm done to get anyone to stop. It's because it was blending IC and OOC, and it wasn't specific to just ZT. Everyone had this mindset of the character, hence my adamant position on the matter. If you'd like to refute that claim, you're certainly within your right, but bear in mind you'd be refuting statements from the guy directly involved. I haven't read anything up until this point, so give me a minute to look back. Yeah, and that was the same incident Im talking about. After the PM with CD, and the nasty PM's you and I traded....It never came up from my camp ever again. **Edit: Im not vouching for everyone in the WCF. Just ZT. after that day, none of us 3 brought it up again.
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Post by Dionysus on Feb 2, 2017 14:41:23 GMT -5
To clarify, this was brought up a few times. The last time it happened, it took me to basically saying I'm done to get anyone to stop. It's because it was blending IC and OOC, and it wasn't specific to just ZT. Everyone had this mindset of the character, hence my adamant position on the matter. If you'd like to refute that claim, you're certainly within your right, but bear in mind you'd be refuting statements from the guy directly involved. I haven't read anything up until this point, so give me a minute to look back. Yeah, and that was the same incident Im talking about. After the PM with CD, and the nasty PM's you and I traded....It never came up from my camp ever again. Right, that was the last time. I'm not starting anything, by the by. Just wanted to clarify in case there was any confusion, and, being the source material, figured I could paint a picture.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 14:44:28 GMT -5
Great post full of great words. Great post, all the things you said in it (totally serious here), but we're a bit past that point of everyone just stepping back and it's not as 50/50 and everyone is at fault as people are making it out to be. I'd rather not get drawn into an argument over it or help this go further off the rails, but it's the simple truth. I'm sure no matter which side you asked, they would likely both agree with it, the difference being that the side mostly responsible is the other. This is beyond walking away and it is beyond PMs. Those ways were tried. It has blown up as big as it has because it has been ignored. Again, not going into details on that one either. Powder keg and all that. If this kind of shit happened 7 years ago or 14-15 years ago during the two times when I have been the most active here, I would not be a veteran or Hall of Famer now. Shit did not just get brushed off so easily in the past and allowed to get to this point as it has over the last 12 months or so.
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Post by Salem Shepard on Feb 2, 2017 14:50:47 GMT -5
Yeah, and that was the same incident Im talking about. After the PM with CD, and the nasty PM's you and I traded....It never came up from my camp ever again. Right, that was the last time. I'm not starting anything, by the by. Just wanted to clarify in case there was any confusion, and, being the source material, figured I could paint a picture. Ok good! lol Thats what I was trying to explain to Jared when he said it continued. cause from our end, it didnt continue, that was the end of it.
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Post by Corey Black on Feb 2, 2017 14:50:59 GMT -5
I'm just going to pop in quick and say if the thread continues like this, there will be no need to lock it. When we start going in circles and getting pissy is when the handcuffs have to come out.
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