Anyone have an opinion on this

[Caliban]

So the other board I work at just gave me a very strange or at least strange to me anyways, answer to an enquiry as to why my full blown chain wrestling into a submission ending was changed to a kick in the gut and a roll up for the pin, the answer? And I quote

"We don't make characters tap out because handlers are very particular about that. Most are against it. We always ask the handler first how they would feel about having their character tap out and if it is alright with them to write it as such.
"

I mean what? Is this common I aint been around efedding for long but this is just weird to me why have a submission finisher (both competitors had submission finishers by the way) and not be able to use it 

[Odin Balfore]

its very common. not many e fedders like to be tapped out. makes their character " look" really weak.. because we all want to be the 2nd coming of * insert john cena here * .... So you having a submission style is like " fuck you, thats bullshit. I'm not tapping"

so to avoid the butthurt, your moveset got changed.

[Thomas Uriel Bates]

I can say I'm not a fan of it. That being said, it is part of wrestling. Unless I mention in my Bio that my character would rather pass out, break a limb, or whatever instead of tapping out, I can't get mad if the writers have me tap out. That being said, if it's every single time, then I'm going to get upset.

[Zombie DankMorris]

At the same time, to say " doesnt tap out and would rather pass out" is the same as " wrestler always kicks out at 2"

like.. um... no.

[Thomas Uriel Bates]

Agreed. It has to be a very special case for me to consider doing that. Such as a character that legitimately cannot feel pain.

This is wrestling. You're going to be pinned, you're going to pass out, you're going to be DQed, you're going to tap out.

[Sarah Twilight]

I think the "not" tapping thing really should only apply for something like a heated feud where they are just building the hatred like "he refuses to tap" or if you have two submission wrestlers in a big match. The pass out ending just pushes both wrestlers. But being immune to tapping in any match ever is just stupid. I also agree it shouldn't be a common occurrence either. For MOST matches a three count victory is suffice enough. But a submission style wrestler also shouldn't be never getting submission victories because nobody wants to tap, ever.

It's just a balance that needs to be worked out and people just accept that in this game, just like in actual wrestling ... sometimes you gotta tap. And submission wrestlers need to learn that they aren't going to tap everyone either.

[Sarah Twilight]

Oh and the reason for that last line is because there have been people (and still are people I'm sure) who create a wrestler with ONLY a submission finisher for the purpose of wanting to win every match via tapout. That is just as rude IMO as people not wanting to tap ever.

[Caliban]

I feel like it was a fair ending to the match in my defense both endings I wrote had the other guy tap out, it just sucked because it took away the whole story I was trying to tell with the 2 guys being brawlers and knowing they would hit a stalemate both men decided to take it to the mat where it is traditionally said that one man out of the 2 will be better than the other I took the time to have that all play out in the match and then "punk kicks him in the gut and rolls him up for 3" it was just such a waste of effort and they took away a beginning where the heel jumps the start with a kick to the back of the anti-hero face's (whose pic base is john cena by the way he he) head and that starts things heavy and the commentary throughout reflected that and yet that start was also gone from the match having it start with the heel charge the face and the face bust his nose open they didn't even tell me why they changed that

To be straight up with you it made the whole damn thing a hodge podge mess when I was trying really hard to put over the contender for the title I hold over there for the match we are having this week I took the time to make both guys look bad ass I even threw in the old 2 chairs in the center of the ring slugfest turning into a double stomp through a chair leading to an unsure disqualification being debated and then waved off for the match to continue all of that just looked like I was throwing shit at the wall because of the stuff they took out

[Caliban]

Jun 3, 2016 1:21:14 GMT -5 Sarah Twilight said:

Oh and the reason for that last line is because there have been people (and still are people I'm sure) who create a wrestler with ONLY a submission finisher for the purpose of wanting to win every match via tapout. That is just as rude IMO as people not wanting to tap ever.

This is why it pisses me off opening someone's character profile to see a short ass move list, that should be the integral part of your characters base, all the backstory stuff is cool but the point of a wrestler is to present who he is in the ring with what he does and while our competitions happen in the RPs we are supposed to be writing those kind of characters and any wrestler should have at least 3 or 4 convincing ways to win even if it's 2 signatures and 2 actual finishers along with an actual thought out set of moves they do having shorter lists treads the line between limiting your own work and coercing the match writer's work 

[Gemini Battle]

Jun 3, 2016 1:33:27 GMT -5 Caliban said:

Jun 3, 2016 1:21:14 GMT -5 Sarah Twilight said:

Oh and the reason for that last line is because there have been people (and still are people I'm sure) who create a wrestler with ONLY a submission finisher for the purpose of wanting to win every match via tapout. That is just as rude IMO as people not wanting to tap ever.

This is why it pisses me off opening someone's character profile to see a short ass move list, that should be the integral part of your characters base, all the backstory stuff is cool but the point of a wrestler is to present who he is in the ring with what he does and while our competitions happen in the RPs we are supposed to be writing those kind of characters and any wrestler should have at least 3 or 4 convincing ways to win even if it's 2 signatures and 2 actual finishers along with an actual thought out set of moves they do having shorter lists treads the line between limiting your own work and coercing the match writer's work 

I usually wrote something like

'Wrestles like *wrestler*' and put moves in that the wrestler I'm mimicking would use.

As for tapping out. Fuck it. Tap out Gemini all day. A loss is a loss. It don't matter how.

[Caliban]

The thought of people getting pissed at submission victories seriously never ever occurred to me it just seems so stupid and I am pretty good at getting mad for no reason but submission wrestling is possibly the coolest type of wrestling you can get as it is based on the genuine shit its a given as someone said before it's like saying your character always kicks out at 2 he would just never not kick out

In the wake of this guys I am warning yah now unless there is expressed storyline related (and fucking valid, Ill make a poll if I have too) reasons, if your opponent has a sweet submission I can make a killer ending out of y'all bitches are tapping out

[Teo Blaze]

Here's my opinion on real life wrestling and efedding!

Babyfaces should almost never tap out. Even if they're being put in the sharpshooter, they pass out from the pain and the referee calls it off. The only time that a babyface should tap out is if the heel in some way gives them no other option, like they should have gotten to the rope but the heel's manager pulled it out of their grip.

Heels on the other hand, definitely get to tap out without much harm to them.

What's the difference? Well you have to get down to the psychology of it all. Tapping out is an act where you are both literally (and symbolically) giving up. You are surrendering, you are admitting the other person is stronger. The big problem with this is that in traditional wrestling, the prototypical story being told is that the babyface is legitimately more capable than the heel, but he often loses to the heel at first because the heel is willing to take shortcuts. The babyface then sacrifices in some form or fashion to gain a rematch and hopefully comeuppance.

Now, the big problem here is that if you have the heel tap out the babyface, it sends the message that the heel is better than the babyface in every way, as the babyface gave up, he took a shortcut, he gave out. This is devastating to the prototypical characters mentioned above because, like it or not, the heel is meant to be weaker than the babyface in a clean fight, that's the source of the drama. You know that John Cena can beat Edge, but gosh darn it if Edge doesn't keep cheating! By golly I can't wait till Cena gets a match with Big Show banned from ringside!

So what about the heel in this situation? Well, there's the interesting thing. Tapping out from a symbolic perspective is demonstrating weakness, taking a shortcut. Buuut, that's exactly what a heel does anyway, right? If you take that prototypical pairing once more, Cena tapping out Edge is expected, because Edge is weaselly. Of course he'll tap out to save his own skin, he's a bad guy! He's not only physically weaker, but mentally weaker as well! It's completely acceptable or even expected for the weaselly guy to tap out if he gets caught in the Yes Lock.

Does this mean that face never get to tap out? No, of course not. But by the same token you really, REALLY have to have it mean something when it happens. You have to have that babyface fight and claw and tear his way across the mat, to aaaaalmost make it to the rope, for the referee to be begging him to tap out, for the audience to be in tears from sympathy, for the pain to be catastrophic!

In other words, you have to make it clear that there is NO other option.

That...kind of doesn't translate well to efedding, especially on a random weekly show. You wouldn't have John Cena tap out to the Walls of Jericho on RAW even if he's supposed to lose the match anyway, see what I'm saying?

Babyfaces have a couple key things that they can get away with that heels can't, and one is their ability to take a beating. Babyfaces can kick out of things at 2.9 that heels wouldn't, can make it to the ropes when they've been in the hold 20 minutes, can have the referee step in and stop the match because they pass out rather than giving up... It's the nature of the characters.

It's not about making them look weak, I mean this. But, let me use myself as an example. I have written Teo alot, and by all accounts I have him take a heck of a beating in just about every match he's in. He's been torqued, cracked, blasted, cut open, you name it. But the thing about it is that the key thing about his character is that so long as the fans are cheering him, he can kick out of things that would otherwise be impossible. To have Teo del Sol tap out on a random match with no fanfare because he lost the RP does make him look weak, yes, but it also fundamentally undermines the basic tenets of the character. Teo would pass out from pain and permanently injure himself rather than tap out to a heel, that's just WHO he is.

Now, is this a weakness of the character? Maybe. But that's kind of like pro wrestling, isn't it? You very rarely see people who tap out opponents in every match. Even Chris Jericho has backup finishers, because the tapout should be a significant moment. It should close out the whole feud even.

I would honestly suggest that if you're going to have a submission move as your finisher, that's great, but also make it clear to the writers not to use that finisher unless they're going to tap. Make it clear that once that bad boy is locked in, there's no way to get out. I don't know if this was intentional, but for about 6 months nobody kicked out of the Habanero High Dive. If I knew it wasn't going to finish the match, I didn't break it out.

(The first was Kemp for anyone who is curious)

Your best bet is to have that submission finisher be the same way. You don't use it every match, but when you use it, that's it. The match is OVER. And be prepared not to use it except once in a while. It'll take some comittment and cooperation from other people, not to mention a bit of time, but you can have a truly feared hold if you can get that established.

I typed 1000 words on this? Someone get me back to work on my RP.

[Dean Wolf]

If someone doesn't like tapping, fuck 'em, whether it's e-fedding or pro wrestling. Brock Lesnar tapped in his first MMA match. If he can do that in reality, then people can tap in a worked or fake worked match.

[Mikey eXtreme]

I'll tap. IDC.

[Stuart Slane]

When I've written matches I almost never have the match decided by submission (unless it's my character on the receiving end of it) for the reasons others have said. People feel tapping out makes them look weak. Usually when you become "the guy" in a promotion you rise above a submission loss (Cena being the most identifiable example, but the trope didn't start with him), and since in efedding a lot of participants have aspirations of being "the guy" they don't want that stigma.

I don't mind tapping out. "Knotted Up" is supposed to be Slane's big move, and it is a submission. It wouldn't be fair of me to expect people to submit to my finisher and not reciprocate.

On the subject of movesets in general though, I find smaller lists easier to write for than big ones, especially if the person chooses a few uncommon attacks that are supposed to be big spots in a match. The more common moves- clotheslines, DDTs, armbars- almost don't have to be on the list, since most real fake wrestlers use them in a match anyway.

[Henry Spearman]

To me, the "never taps" thing is something that develops over time organically.

I'm sure when John cena first arrived Vince didn't say "hell never tap" but its something that over time kind of just organically developed and became part of his character

[Dean Wolf]

Bernard Core's finishing move was a stretch muffler and no one ever wrote it into the match unless I wrote the match. No wonder. Good to know this was a precedent.

[Corey Black]

If it is built through the match then it's fine. But if someone has a bunch of head and body based offense and CD taps to a Figure Four, shit will hit the fan.

[Lilith]

Note to self: If I ever face CD, make him tap to a Figure Four

[Corey Black]

You would have to stop trolling and contribute first.