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Post by Odin Balfore on Jul 8, 2016 18:34:16 GMT -5
Right or wrong, police have the responsibility of protecting those in.Their custody.
And have zero right to discharge a fire arm into an occupied vehicle with innocent ppl in it that were not in danger
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Post by TheButcher on Jul 8, 2016 19:09:19 GMT -5
Right or wrong, police have the responsibility of protecting those in.Their custody. And have zero right to discharge a fire arm into an occupied vehicle with innocent ppl in it that were not in danger You are right, Odin. Protect and serve, not Observe and discharge.. |
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Post by Corey Black on Jul 8, 2016 19:19:14 GMT -5
I've argued this plenty of times so I'm just going to bulletpoint it.
- called to a man pointing gun at someone
- resists arrest
- resists taser
- has gun in pocket
- appears to reach for said gun ... two times
- arm under car, almost impossible to be neutralized
Minnesota shooting isn't something I've looked into that much because the only info I saw at the time was the girlfriend's recount, but fucks sake. Uproar for the sake of uproar the first round.
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Post by Henry Spearman on Jul 8, 2016 21:29:39 GMT -5
This is going to end up being a real hot bed. Perhaps it's best left off the boards.
Not a mod, just a thought though. Kind of a high tension topic and there is no right answer here
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 21:59:39 GMT -5
This isn't meant to be a political discussion- it is a memorial service. There are no two ways about it, these men were shot down in cold blood and there is no justification for it in any way whatsoever. There's no way anyone here could disagree there.
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Post by Sarah Twilight on Jul 8, 2016 22:03:49 GMT -5
The media have done a great job of pitting law enforcement against the people and vice versa by showcasing the bad and ignoring the good.
There is one thing every person on this board has been told by their mother, father, grandparents etc at least once: Two wrongs do not make a right.
Shooting at police because of perceived wrongdoing by other police does not make it ok.
Thing is again, this is being pushed and will continue to be. But if you look at the facts here both sides are going about it all wrong.
The Police:
Citizens have a RIGHT during any traffic stop OR ANY encounter with police to refuse to speak to you, they have to RIGHT to refuse search and seizure. They have the RIGHT to have an attorney present BEFORE you begin to conduct ANY investigation with them and they DO have the right to photograph and record your actions. They do NOT have to exit their vehicle if if you have NOT answered the question as to 1) why they were stopped and 2) if they are being arrested or detained and WHY. They do not have to present identification without proper reason given for a LAWFUL stop. (this does NOT apply if the police stop/confront you DURING the commission of a crime that they can SEE.)
Screaming at people to step out of the car or get on the ground and repeating it as a threat with a weapon drawn when you are simply questioned as to WHY you are engaging them or asking if they are being detained and why is NOT a reason for a person to comply. You ARE obligated under the constitution and the protections of DUE PROCESS to state the reason for engagement and IF the person is being detained and the reason why. You ARE required to give a badge number and name upon request. I believe a portion of the problem is officers who believe they can just command anyone at anytime and that's that. Which it is not.
Citizens:
YES, you have the rights stated above. However, fighting, struggling with or purposefully being aggressive/antagonizing toward an officer who is NOT engaing you correctly does nothing to help the situation. If they are overstepping their bounds and/or denying your rights, have it filmed, have it recorded even if by someone else and let the officer be the ONLY person in the wrong. When you escalate the situation, you are giving ANY officer whether a good one or a bad one recourse to take action against you that is no longer protected under your rights. You CAN refuse commands without answers, however once those answers have been given you MUST comply, even if the answer is a shit one or one you don't like. You may still remain silent, you may still refuse search and you may still request your attorney. You can NOT become combative, even if the officer is 100% wrong. You can NOT leave the scene until you are free to leave even if the officer is wrong. You may stand up for your rights, but you must do it diplomatically and not with aggression. This is the other half of the problem is citizens who believe their rights give them a pass to ignore the police at any point in time.
DUE PROCESS is a balance. You have your rights, but officers also have theirs.
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Post by TheButcher on Jul 8, 2016 22:23:57 GMT -5
So, just like the movie.. Institute, "The Purge." 24 hours of anarchy..
It's almost turning into a dystopian future.. Maybe a bleek look, but sometimes, I just wonder.
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Post by Corey Black on Jul 8, 2016 23:15:19 GMT -5
Dude pointed a gun at someone. That's why the cops were called. Rights go out the window in violent affairs.
What happened sucks and it shouldn't be that way. The Dallas thing is even worse, really.
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Post by Thomas Uriel Bates on Jul 9, 2016 0:31:59 GMT -5
The media have done a great job of pitting law enforcement against the people and vice versa by showcasing the bad and ignoring the good. There is one thing every person on this board has been told by their mother, father, grandparents etc at least once: Two wrongs do not make a right. Shooting at police because of perceived wrongdoing by other police does not make it ok. Thing is again, this is being pushed and will continue to be. But if you look at the facts here both sides are going about it all wrong. The Police: Citizens have a RIGHT during any traffic stop OR ANY encounter with police to refuse to speak to you, they have to RIGHT to refuse search and seizure. They have the RIGHT to have an attorney present BEFORE you begin to conduct ANY investigation with them and they DO have the right to photograph and record your actions. They do NOT have to exit their vehicle if if you have NOT answered the question as to 1) why they were stopped and 2) if they are being arrested or detained and WHY. They do not have to present identification without proper reason given for a LAWFUL stop. (this does NOT apply if the police stop/confront you DURING the commission of a crime that they can SEE.) Screaming at people to step out of the car or get on the ground and repeating it as a threat with a weapon drawn when you are simply questioned as to WHY you are engaging them or asking if they are being detained and why is NOT a reason for a person to comply. You ARE obligated under the constitution and the protections of DUE PROCESS to state the reason for engagement and IF the person is being detained and the reason why. You ARE required to give a badge number and name upon request. I believe a portion of the problem is officers who believe they can just command anyone at anytime and that's that. Which it is not. Citizens: YES, you have the rights stated above. However, fighting, struggling with or purposefully being aggressive/antagonizing toward an officer who is NOT engaing you correctly does nothing to help the situation. If they are overstepping their bounds and/or denying your rights, have it filmed, have it recorded even if by someone else and let the officer be the ONLY person in the wrong. When you escalate the situation, you are giving ANY officer whether a good one or a bad one recourse to take action against you that is no longer protected under your rights. You CAN refuse commands without answers, however once those answers have been given you MUST comply, even if the answer is a shit one or one you don't like. You may still remain silent, you may still refuse search and you may still request your attorney. You can NOT become combative, even if the officer is 100% wrong. You can NOT leave the scene until you are free to leave even if the officer is wrong. You may stand up for your rights, but you must do it diplomatically and not with aggression. This is the other half of the problem is citizens who believe their rights give them a pass to ignore the police at any point in time. DUE PROCESS is a balance. You have your rights, but officers also have theirs. While you are correct on a Constitutional standpoint, remember that our government does not follow the Constitution, especially the concept of Due Process (they've recently sat down and whined about not being able to vote against the 2nd and 5th Amendments, when they lost the vote). Check your local laws, as many States have different rules; for example, in one State you can refuse to show your ID if you're just asked (not detained), but in others you must show your ID even if you're not being detained. Each State is different, so please check your State laws as well. My heart goes out to the victims of the recent tragedies; the police officers in Dallas, what so far looks like Philando Castile, and the officers involved in the altercation with Alton Sterling. It is my hope that justice will prevail, but if recent events have shown us anything, it's that justice takes a backseat to political agendas. |
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Post by TheButcher on Jul 9, 2016 0:36:23 GMT -5
Good point, Bates. That is valid and true. I admit I was looking at the situation-at-hand from Federal standpoint, and also localized aspects also. But, good info. I didn't consider.
And, yes, my heart goes out to all the victims as well. Regardless of anything being argued, it is still a tragedy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 2:41:32 GMT -5
It's a vicious cycle and the main problem is accountability and consistency regardless of skin color with our criminal justice system. What we need is police to be held to the same standards as the military often are for example. If some recruit decides to do some dickhead shit, he has people there to ride his ass and make sure he's doing what he's supposed to. That's not happening enough with police. Police need to serve their purpose and serve their people and that purpose is not being members of a makeshift firing squad.
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Post by meteoricrise on Jul 9, 2016 15:17:20 GMT -5
My response isn't to get a gun. I already have enough guns to do any reasonable amount of self defense. Between the bloodlines out here combined we have a well armed militia. I'm not going out looking for trouble. We stick to ourselves out here. You don't accidentally knock on our door at night, you gotta tread through 5 acres of dense woods and dogs, As long as no one comes knocking on our doors at night the world can go as crazy as it wants. The ones I feel sorry for are my boy and his generation. By the time it's all said and done the world we have him is going to be a warzone.
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Post by Thomas Uriel Bates on Jul 10, 2016 1:09:20 GMT -5
This is going to end up being a real hot bed. Perhaps it's best left off the boards. Not a mod, just a thought though. Kind of a high tension topic and there is no right answer here Didn't see this post earlier. I'm keeping an eye on this thread, as are the other mods, if it gets out of hand it will be shut down quick. Dag should be right. Although, I ran into one of the militant type "Black Lives Matter" people on my Facebook page, and in my neighborhood. Got plenty of protection with me, just in case. |
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Post by Odin Balfore on Jul 10, 2016 2:14:49 GMT -5
Cuz u forget that the kkk is still a very real thing
Smh
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Post by dropkickgregory on Jul 10, 2016 4:08:59 GMT -5
Pardon the cliche but Dr.King said it best. You can't fight hate with hate, hate multiplies hate violence multiplies violence. I'm not a hippie by any means but as broken as the US is at the moment we can't afford anymore breaks we all need to come together as AMERICANS and stand together and not accept this any longer
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Post by Thomas Uriel Bates on Jul 10, 2016 6:35:05 GMT -5
Cuz u forget that the kkk is still a very real thing Smh Nope, I've dealt with them too. They're just not in my immediate area. |
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